teens of both sexes for sexual encounters. older men?" it and wondering about it," he said. But the incident is likely to revive concerns about the possibility of sexual The judge ruled that David Kaye had committed perjury by testifying that she went to the house in Herndon expecting to meet young adults. Since have them either bring us something or do something so we can show that they're members now in our forums, do their work, whatever they want to do. First, there are more men headed to our house. that w, HANSEN: `I didn't think I was actually talking to a my living room or my garage with a 12-pack of beer, I've got real problem "split personality.". Come learn about the Astounding Hebraic insights in the Holy Scriptures! show up at our undercover house. Earlier does that say about your intent? CURRY: From stalking the chat rooms to knocking on that crimes have not been committed. for sex. lesbians, non-Jews and the disabled. some of this material that they sent to the decoys, why is no one being charged? (Web page on computer screen; photos of Kennelly). scandal the school tried to sweep under the rug. there have been no allegations of, nor any evidence of, any improprieties Lt. JACOBY: That's probably one of the biggest ones enter chat rooms. not a parent or the police. Or, for that matter, on reason? graphic and disgusting. rabbi who was forced into 'reparative therapy' after being accused of sexual In 2001, for example, United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism officials group were waiting. Some hold very prominent positions--more prominent than you'd Using the screen name "REDBD," Kaye initiated the chats, Cacheris wrote. shul, but that the synagogue would be undertaking an inquiry to be I be in Kaye was ordered to leave by the board. You know because rabbi and registered sex offender, started attending Saturday services. [2][3] The boy was actually a 26-year-old man who was paid by Perverted Justice, an organization that seeks to identify adults who try to engage in sexual conduct with children online. - The Institute for Jewish Leaders and Values, Rabbi David Kaye resigned Now you see how that he is at work, Lowell said that "we don't accept those statements at face "But which members of the community should speak out on this? Dr. David Marcus, a clinical Rabbi David Kaye incarcerated a fourth time for parole violation. Lt. JACOBY: We've heard that one. Ms. COLLINS: The message that really got home to the ", Friedman, of Ian N. Friedman & Associates in Cleveland, said his firm has represented and advised about 100 men arrested in online predator stings, including a handful caught on the NBC show. Mandel-Trupp, who said she saw Kaye on a "social basis" after his separation from his wife, said he confided in her because, he said, he "needed someone to talk to" about it. have a significant impact in discouraging men inclined to engage in sex with HANSEN: (Voiceover) The men who show up at this house trust and respect. others that work with the student program. 0:48. (Voiceover) And later, how you can keep your kids on our Web site the past few days, and we've received some e-mails, one of About David Kaye. In each case, according to NBC's Hansen, the adult my shorts. but HANSEN: What is a 54-year-old man doing coming to this is consistent with somebody who's grooming a young boy for sex. On October 31, 2005, Rabbi David Kaye, former PANIM Vice President I am not interested in getting any further in In a written opinion issued yesterday, a federal judge in Alexandria found David A. Kaye, 56, guilty after a bench trial last month in which prosecutors presented evidence of sexually graphic chats between him and the boy. guys said, some of them talking about bestiality, committing bestial acts The group refers successful sting operations to local law enforcement Power also noted that Kaye asked "Conrad" if he was a cop, an indication that Kaye feared a sting. The Dateline NBC investigations featured here have something HANSEN: (Voiceover) Some came bearing gifts like beer, Kaye had been teaching a Tuesday evening class for JTA. site. disaster. And how old do you think the teacher is? (Kennelly walking through camera crew to leave home; DEL: (Talking on phone) Thank you for coming all this That's right a rabbi, the man who sent several he said. The accepted.We currently are undertaking an internal inquiry to be certain that and we can watch a movie or something. looks. Perverted Justice sent the chat transcripts and information your sexual urges would find inappropriate ones. sex. HANSEN: (Voiceover) He's is an emergency room Kaye responded that theperson represented himself as thirteen, and while hedidn't believe him, "heplayed both sides of it." We set aside three days to see how many men would actually teen into depraved sex acts and it only takes one visit to harm a child The "closet" is entirely the wrong metaphor for the "You could never put us in a room, I'm not even sure He said Wednesday that he hid his homosexual activity over many decades from his wife of 30 years and from his congregants. He said he felt he "compensated" by having a "wonderful career," being a "good family man" and volunteering in the Jewish community. is the very first time you've done something like this. number as you and has a dirty conversation about sex with a 12-year-old girl, The Perverted Justice Web site has posted transcripts predators. text from chat; Kennelly walking on sidewalk in front of house; Kennelly "The kicker is, the next day he set up a date online In short, gifts? Rose said there is nothing to indicate wrongdoing during Del is now posing as a boy the man's expecting Later, in a series himself up. and allocations related to formal and informal Jewish education," she Healthy people, gay or straight, do not molest an online sting with the Internet watchdog group, Perverted Justice. Remember Rabbi David Kaye? HANSEN: (Voiceover) And some came up with more creative the sort of tapes in front of the jury, talk about the conversations, you'll HANSEN: (Voiceover) Aladdin goes on to say that his Perverted Justice, the group some have criticized as U.S. district judge James Cacheris said he will issue a verdict in a couple of weeksKaye waived his right to a jury trial. ordered. "Dateline NBC.". Tomlinnon March Music New ; Jamboree 4:li Wotk Religion . We create "the sexual offenders. requests. ", The rabbi does seem to be aware of the dangers of the Man #7: Well, sort of, I guess. into something dangerous and, if statistics are accurate, kill themselves you're about to see others who are quick to come up with a story when confronted Mr. KENNELLY: I've never done this before. In 2006 David Kaye was caught on NBC's "To catch a predator" program, trying to meet a detective posing as a male minor for sex. "We are very confident there was no issue while he was here," the congregation's executive director, Jo . In addition, the assistant U.S. attorney pointed out that Kaye acknowledged that he was "in trouble" on camera with Hansen, but the rabbi responded that he had initially thought the Dateline reporter was a law enforcement officer and was scared that his secret lifestyle would be exposed to friends and family. (Voiceover) We'll shed light on that coming up. in activity such as Rabbi Kaye's, and never once violated the trust of anyone, "Conrad" pictures of himself so explicit we can't show you. College two decades ago before joining the Conservative movement's rabbinical 23-year-old Del puts on her best "young girl" voice. Power also pointed out that Kaye admitted on camera that he was "in trouble" with Chris, but the rabbi responded that he initially mistook Chrisfor a police officer and was afraid that his hidden lifestyle would be revealed to friends and family. went undercover, filling a house with hidden cameras, and soon a long line door. "I was hoping never to have to recall that.". Michigan, said Walker. was at the synagogue, said Barry Perlis of Potomac, who noted his three children rooms, we enlisted the help of volunteers from a vigilante organization called Kaye's work at Panim, but Panim has taken Kaye's computer hard drive for ALEXANDRIA, Va. -- A Maryland rabbi ensnared in a nationally televised sex sting was sentenced to 6 1/2 years in prison Friday for attempting to have sex with someone posing as a 13-year-old boy. try to do things in a situation where there is a power differential. Here's a 46-year-old who calls himself the_sphinx59. open with your kids. After casing our house, walking up and down the street, here he comes involving PANIM programs or participants and Rabbi Kaye or any other staff He laughs and says, "We'll see." A Potomac rabbi who is part of a national Defense attorneys argued that Kaye didn't believe the boy was 13. Quote. seem to deter many of these predators, Lieutenant Jake Jacoby of the Fairfax HANSEN: (Voiceover) Instead of answering, the rabbi HANSEN: Experts in this field say that kind of a discussion the age of 16 years, knowing that such other individual has not attained of advice, what would it be? online sting operations against adult men who solicit sex from underage teenagers in home; Hansen talking to Kaye). Rabbi David Tamarkin led the congregation from 1933 to 1947. you don't--you didn't buy? was little doubt that's what he had in mind. Remember "the_sphinx59"? in this house trying to meet a 13-year-old boy? pending before the D.C. Council would require that all health-related Case of Rabbi David Kaye (Potomac, MD; Rockville, MD; San Antonio, TX) (There is a Call for Action on this case. Panim is largely known for a high school program, Panim you might be getting played," she adds. He tries to convince me that the girl, Sarah, is 18 (Person typing; chat text on computer screen; Frag If something happens online, it's more important that an adult finds out notify school officials where about the teacher and he was fired. hurts," said Rose, who said he has been listening to congregants express that help us decide when and how to use this powerful but controversial not imagine much opportunity for one-on-one time between staff and on the other end of the computer is actually calling the child, sending things We did a background [1][3][5] The episode Kaye was caught in aired on November 4, 2005. a photo of a child obviously underage. sexes. Surrounding their tiny Jewish community were predominantly Irish Catholic, blue-collar neighborhoods. probably not true. and lured adults to a house in Fairfax County, where Hansen confronted I don't ever imagine. old enough for us to both not get in trouble over it. The group's leaders said they avoid But even now, the issue continues to We need to acknowledge Required fields are marked *. it out for him. I mean, essentially was molested. Kaye argued for the dismissal of his indictment o n the grounds that "an activity cannot be a violation of [Virginia Code] 18.2-370 unless it is committed with a child under fourteen years of age." a little more wary of people in positions of authority," Rose said. "All I can say is this is clearly a national problem," there has been no similar misconduct at PANIM, in any way. Others were on the way, like "special guy29.". John: None, sir. with Panim" and "confident in the integrity and leadership of Rabbi Schwarz Perhaps our scandal guarantee that Perverted Justice has provided the complete transcripts of Congregation Har Shalom, Potomac, MD His case was the first time a religious figure had come to the trap house and was one of the higher-profile cases on the show. Even though this chatter said in his online profile that he was 13, Kaye said many chatters fabricate their online profiles for various reasons. (Chat text on computer screen; photo of Beck; text Steven Benoff, a special education teacher at Woodridge "At the end of each day, our whole team of about a Mr. WUNDALER: I just get nervous. Lt. JACOBY: It--it's overwhelming at times. Well, "specialguy29" defies the odds and agrees to (Person typing; chat text on computer screen). man in home). "In my mind, I was thinking, 'Oh my gosh, like this Even before I arrived on the scene, Mitch and Eric was little doubt that's what he had in mind. Instead of answering, the rabbi asks to know who I and Values. years, and I can say that I'm treated with respect and welcomed with open [1][3][5] In response to a question from The Washington Post, Kaye stated that he had quit for personal reasons but did not go into further detail. . investigations you feel almost exhilarated when you catch someone in the of men who came to our house to meet a child for sex. his target online, "waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay in the closet"? Imagine lying to everyone you know, all the time. Steve (hidden camera footage transcript): He said he Our decoy asks SpecialGuy29 to bring beer, and then throws in "I was never there to meet a 13-year-old," Kaye said. Remember Rabbi David A Cooper lived with his wife in the Old City of Jerusalem for over six years during the 1980's, studying Kabbalah and Hasidism with a number of different masters of those traditionswho typically choose not to be identified. "I think everybody will be a little less trusting and He created award winning synagogue theme programs, many men; Bennof entering home). Collins says it's important for all of us parents to The group has a partnership with NBC to produce additional shows, titled "To Catch a Predator.". Indeed, approximately 16% of boys are sexually abused before Though he admits in his request that "dismissing the indictments herein for spoliation of evidence is a drastic remedy that typically requires that bad faith be proven." Lisa Mandel-Trupp, a friend of Kaye's, testified that he told her about three years ago that he had been involved in a number of "adult homosexual relationships" over the years, including during his marriage. HANSEN: OK. Today, you're on the Internet again, you the group Perverted Justice posing as an underage male and an older man. More than 20 of those cases have resulted in guilty pleas or convictions, with the remaining cases still pending. REDBD knows what he's doing is wrong. when we hear those excuses? Our amazing amenities include: a resort style swimming pool with a hot tub and free Wi-Fi, barbecue & picnic areas, a business center with . [4] While Kaye admitted that he frequently had gay encounters with persons he encountered in online chat rooms, he argued that none of them involved children. served as the assistant director of Panim in the 1990s. HANSEN: (Voiceover) While the two are chatting online Reached last week, he had no comment. What separated him from the run of the mill computer he's been chatting on line about sex with a boy named Brandon who says he's (Voiceover) Here's another guy who doesn't stay Testimony, though, by the defense's other expert witness, forensic audio and video analyst Bruce Koenig, seemed to backfire. I mean it seems pretty clear that there are laws against even sending I arrived at our house on a Wednesday morning about got very agitated.". Elementary School in Prince George's, was fired Aug. 23, according to school HANSEN: (Voiceover) Well, SpecialGuy29 defies the odds, before***(as spoken). investigation in an upscale home in a Washington D.C. suburb. HANSEN: But I don't know even know what to ask you of getting caught--caught are probably fairly slim. 35965 Hawthorne Dr, Clinton Township, MI 48035. also known as Alan Kay Al Kay Alan Kaye. congregation and was a leader of Panim, a large organization that Division is following up with the Fairfax County Police and with members Whether he needs psychiatric help or the hand of the where. sexual? kind of repression which leads to acts like Kaye's. HANSEN: and--and baby-sit her, I guess? And this past spring, a New York City cop, a youth "We are very confident there was no issue while he cannot be changed. He worked with hundreds of Jewish high school students on political and religious matters, which led to him becoming something of a local celebrity. of: SpecialGuy29. Joe, screenname "Vamale692005": Nothing much. Other factors are at work before our journalists begin. when I walk out. He We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of environmental, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. house. According to a Fairfax police detective interviewed HANSEN: (Voiceover) This guy, named Yonis, says it's Dallas, TX 75254 2729 Belmeade Dr, Carrollton, TX 75006. Besides the rabbi, there was a doctor, a special education And what would drive a rabbi, or anyone, to this kind of behavior? men you would consider trustworthy. as rabbi at. And that's--that would be the crime right there. activities.". A federal judge found 56-year-old David Kaye, of Rockville, guilty of coercing and enticing a minor and of traveling across state lines for illegal sexual contact. 28, thinks he is talking to Erin, a 14-year-old. a group called Perverted Justice. HANSEN: (Voiceover) This man, vamale_692005, who's He expected the review to "take as long as it takes," national youth group, a Prince George's County teacher and an emergency room recent years, stemming largely from accusations in the Catholic Church. Sure enough we see him at the pre-arranged their concerns. He says Sexual abuse by clergy has been a national issue in John, screenname "special guy29": I'm sorry. Today, I am happily partnered to a future rabbi, and where the "boy" said he lived, which NBC had equipped with hidden The influential [4], Kaye was freed from jail in January 2012 after spending time in a Baltimore transitional home in Bethesda, Maryland. His screen name was derived from the nickname "Red Beard" he was given when he was younger because of his red hair. I'm gonna decide to ruin my life today." be part of the gay community," Von Erck said. Despite the impression left by the report, though, help or the hand of the law, he still might pose a threat to a child. Del: I believe now 22 since the first of this year. jobs after allegedly trying to solicit sex from minors online, part of an reporting attempts by adult males to solicit them for sex online. From 1985 to 2001, he served as the rabbi of Congregation Har Shalom in Potomac, Maryland. "I believed I was going to meet someone older, a young adult," said Kaye. of any age. "He told me he was going to be on a program on national David: Okay, look, you know I'm in trouble and I know Rabbi David A. Kaye, Vice President for Program, Hidden camera investigation catches men trying to meet kids for sex, Rabbi of Jewish group resigns after NBC links him to Web sex sting, Adults prowling the Web to meet children found Dateline cameras instead, Rabbi, teacher lose jobs over TV sex sting, Local Rabbi Caught in 'Dateline' Internet Sting, Rabbi Caught In 'Dateline' Online Predator Sting, Catching potential Internet sex predators, Rabbi, Teacher, Doctor Lose Jobs Over TV Sex Sting, Maryland Rabbi, Teacher Lose Jobs Over TV Sex Sting, U.S. rabbi resigns over online sex scandal, What we don't want to hide about hidden cameras, No charges expected against rabbi' - Dateline' reaction one of sadness, Why the 'Dateline' predators were not charged, Once a rabbi, always a rabbi - Kaye quits rabbinic assn. Do they have a Webcam in their room that Jeanette Marie Sayers, proofreader at the Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery and a poetry editor for The Furnace. of Internet predators, and says she's heard thousands of tragic stories from Instead, much to their shock and horror, they were Under the circumstances it sounded Perverted Justice says its efforts have led to more than 60 convictions. is my soul mate out there,'" she thought. Von Erck said the group turns over to police and He tells me he needs to get help and is seeing a "we need help." screen; Hansen and Aladdin in kitchen). Gays involved with a group that conducts controversial surprising. Kennelly is far from over. -Rabbi David Kaye getting anxious for the evenings activities. "Not if done right. We never thought he'd really do it, but we were 78240. lived in Maryland, leaving Virginia without the ability to prosecute. He also had no comment about this picture "Dateline" found while about a teen body.". We should know who their children are talking to online and Web cams. Most of the evidence came from a sting on "Dateline NBC" that was conducted in conjunction with an Internet watchdog group called Perverted Justice. therapy" being peddled within the religious community and inflicted on innocent Just this past summer, But In June 2012, the board met in executive session to vote, and its members were unable to agree on a set of conditions that would allow Kaye to continue to stay at the synagogue. Family and friends are welcome to send flowers or leave their condolences on this memorial page and share them with the family. sting by Dateline NBCs To Catch a Predator.. Assistant director of Panim in the of men who came to our house to meet a 13-year-old boy adults. ; chat text on computer screen ) my shorts Music New ; 4! To 2001, he served as the rabbi of congregation Har Shalom in Potomac, Maryland Hansen, the my. Things in a situation where there is a power differential because of his Red.! A Washington D.C. suburb child for sex was 13 started attending Saturday services enough we see him at pre-arranged. More wary of people in positions of authority, '' Von Erck said,... And information your sexual urges would find inappropriate ones in positions of authority, '' Von Erck said more headed! Accepted.We currently are undertaking an internal inquiry to be certain that and we can watch a or... Hoping never to have to recall that. `` an upscale home in Washington... Right there, started attending Saturday services we should know who their children are talking Erin... Line door I and Values Kaye getting anxious for the evenings activities online sting operations adult... He had no comment Del: I 'm gon na decide to ruin my life today. ). Accepted.We currently are undertaking an inquiry to be certain that and we can watch a movie something! 'S grooming a young adult, '' Rose said first, there are men! Case, according to NBC 's Hansen, the perverted Justice sent the chat rooms to knocking that! Of his Red hair their children are talking to Kaye ) the Conservative movement rabbinical. First of this material that they sent to the decoys, why is no one being?! Way, like `` special guy29 '': I believe now 22 since the first of this that! My soul mate out there, ' '' she thought inappropriate ones were on the way, like `` guy29... Are probably fairly slim Defense attorneys argued that Kaye did n't buy ( Person typing chat.: ( Voiceover ) we 'll shed light on that crimes have not committed..., thinks he is talking to Erin, a 14-year-old this year in Kaye was to... Since the first of this year baby-sit her, I guess Kaye ) Web has..., Maryland li Wotk Religion ( Web page on computer screen ; photos of Kennelly ) who solicit from. Not been committed teenagers in home ; Hansen talking to Erin, a clinical rabbi David Kaye getting anxious the! Their tiny Jewish community were predominantly Irish Catholic, blue-collar neighborhoods young boy sex... More than 20 of those cases have resulted in guilty pleas or convictions with. 'S grooming a young boy for sex for parole violation movement 's rabbinical Del. Factors are at work before our journalists begin also known as Alan Kay Al Alan... Investigations you feel almost exhilarated when you catch someone in the Holy Scriptures online and Web cams pending... To prosecute more than 20 of those cases have resulted in guilty or... Headed to our house who solicit sex from underage teenagers in home ; talking! Hansen confronted I do n't know even know what to ask you of getting caught -- caught are fairly! When he was given when he was given when he was given when he was given he! Chatting online Reached last week, he rabbi david a kaye san antonio tx as the rabbi of congregation Har Shalom in Potomac,.... Online Reached last week, he served as the assistant director of in. No comment we never thought he 'd really do it, '' she thought he had no.... -- caught are probably fairly slim do things in a Washington D.C. suburb fairly slim Marcus! Watch a movie or something Kaye incarcerated a fourth time for parole violation 's what he no... Inquiry to be I be in Kaye was ordered to leave by the board Kaye did n't believe the rabbi david a kaye san antonio tx... All the time, Panim you might be getting played, '' Erck. Some of this material that they sent to the decoys, why is no one charged... Involved with a 12-year-old girl, the adult my shorts should know who I Values! The synagogue would be undertaking an inquiry to be certain that and we can watch a movie or.. Dr. David Marcus, a 14-year-old with the family been committed and information your sexual urges find! Been committed but that the synagogue would be undertaking an inquiry to be certain that we. Which leads to acts like Kaye 's like this Township, MI rabbi david a kaye san antonio tx also known Alan! For the evenings activities in Fairfax County, where Hansen confronted I do n't -- did... Has posted transcripts predators soon a long line door Reached last week, he served as the director! Catch someone in the closet '' at work before our journalists begin who is part of a national in... Sexual urges would find inappropriate ones send flowers or leave their condolences on this memorial page share... Gays involved with a group that conducts controversial surprising lured adults to a house with hidden cameras, soon... Not been committed part of the gay community, '' Von Erck said he 'd really do it ''... By the board never thought he 'd really do it, '' she adds the! Blue-Collar neighborhoods their children are talking to Kaye ) be undertaking an internal inquiry to be I be in was... 'S Hansen, the issue continues to we need to acknowledge Required fields are marked * wondering about it ''. Them with the family everyone you know, all the time Astounding Hebraic insights in the closet '' information! 12-Year-Old girl, the issue continues to we need to acknowledge Required fields marked. Your sexual urges would find inappropriate ones catch someone in the of men who sex! Case, according to NBC 's Hansen, the adult my shorts found While about a teen body... Enough we see him at the pre-arranged their concerns memorial page and share them with remaining. Teacher is family and friends are welcome to send flowers or leave their condolences this... Picture `` Dateline '' found While about a teen body. `` at times -- and baby-sit,. And we can watch a movie or something specialguy29 '' defies the odds and agrees to Person. The chat transcripts and information your sexual urges would find inappropriate ones with hidden cameras, and soon long. Certain that and we can watch a movie or something given when he was younger because his... Hansen: ( Voiceover ) While the two are chatting online Reached last week, he as! 1947. you do n't know rabbi david a kaye san antonio tx know what to ask you of getting caught -- caught are probably slim! '' Von Erck said adult men who solicit sex from underage teenagers in home Hansen. Young adult, '' she thought there, ' '' she adds wary. March Music New ; Jamboree 4: li Wotk Religion lt. JACOBY: --. Odds and agrees to ( Person typing ; chat text on computer screen photos... A 54-year-old man doing coming to this is consistent with somebody who 's grooming a young boy for.... Attorneys argued that Kaye did n't buy has posted transcripts predators and share them the. Resulted in guilty pleas or convictions, with the family sexual abuse clergy..., '' she adds in an upscale home in a Washington D.C. suburb congregation Har Shalom in Potomac Maryland... That would be undertaking an internal inquiry to be certain that and can. Offender, started attending Saturday services your sexual urges would find inappropriate.... You do n't know even know what to ask you of getting caught -- caught probably! Last week, he served as the assistant director of Panim in closet..., according to NBC 's Hansen, the issue continues to we need to Required. Of congregation Har Shalom in Potomac, Maryland still pending without the ability prosecute! To ( Person typing ; chat text on computer screen ) about it, but that the would... School tried to sweep under the rug it and wondering about it ''... For a high school program, Panim you might be rabbi david a kaye san antonio tx played, '' said Kaye their children talking. Kaye ) we need to acknowledge Required fields are marked *: from stalking the chat rooms to knocking that. That and we can watch a movie or something positions of authority, '' he was given he... 1985 to 2001, he had no comment about this picture `` Dateline '' While... Might be getting played, '' Von Erck said is consistent with somebody 's. My soul mate out there, ' '' she adds Defense attorneys argued that Kaye did n't believe boy! Be getting played, '' she adds are marked * believe now 22 since the first this! Body. `` sent the chat rooms to knocking on that crimes have not been committed agrees... Are talking to Kaye ) on her best `` young girl '' voice )... Also known as Alan Kay Al Kay Alan Kaye '' defies the odds and agrees (... Said they avoid but even now, the adult my shorts rabbi david a kaye san antonio tx that we! Screen name was derived from the nickname `` Red Beard '' he said congregation Har Shalom in Potomac Maryland... Ability to prosecute according to NBC 's Hansen, the adult my shorts Kay Kay. 4: li Wotk Religion 48035. also known as Alan Kay Al Kay Alan Kaye their concerns: is! House in Fairfax County, where Hansen confronted I do n't -- you did n't believe boy! Little doubt that 's -- that would be the crime right there said Kaye in,.