If we are not careful, we will create a situation in which anyone will be able to find out whether the Security Service has been involved in an operation against him—simply by submitting a complaint and waiting for the appropriate leaflets to arrive. 1, which deals with the different warranting procedures that should apply in an eavesdropping operation. Order. Independent Police Complaint Commission (IPCC); this was created in 2004 to replace the Police Complaint Authority. Does the right hon. I am following the right hon. Gentleman agree that that is a recipe for great mischief? [iii] 3. The hon. In all operations, it is important to protect the integrity of the Security Service, but at the same time the police have a duty to use the complaints machinery. They include eavesdropping activity, in which both Security Service and police personnel were present, and similar activity undertaken as part of an inquiry agreed with the police but where the police were not present. If Security Service officials, acting under the instructions of the chief constable, misbehave in some way, cannot a complaint be levelled against the chief constable, given that he is responsible for those officials? I do not think that I am disclosing anything to Ministers by saying that the Police Complaints Authority does not know quite how complaints will be handled and is far from comfortable with the proposed system. It is the practice not to identify the involvement of the Security Service in an operation in order to protect its activities. The new clause is directed precisely to that effect. Gentleman to speculate on the role of an intelligence officer who participates in a surveillance operation with a colleague who is a police If you have a complaint about the Police, you can come to us. For complaints relating to action against property, the tribunal will involve the commissioner. Brought up, and read the First time. That becomes all the more important when, as a result of the Bill, the Security Service is drawn into joint working with the police and other law enforcement agencies. Nevertheless, the aggrieved complainant will not fall through a net because of a joint operation. I hope that in concluding the debate the Minister will agree that this important issue should be kept under scrutiny and that we should seek the best possible way to deal with it. It is certainly important to give members of the public who want a complaint investigated a way of having it investigated in a manner that is not obscure or closed to them. The tribunal's remit extends to any inquiries by the Security Service that have been initiated since November 1989—when the tribunal came into being—and any inquiries that were initiated before November 1989 where no decision had been taken to discontinue them in the intervening period. Such a complexity currently exists because the Security Service is beginning to assist the police service. Members if we consider what will happen in practice. Powers and competences. Those are my questions to the Minister. I suspect that that is what may happen if any of the resources are needed in the fight against terrorism. Complaints must be submitted in the first instance to the local police force. Members of the Security Service are subject to the law, and if a criminal offence has been committed, the police will investigate. I give way first to the hon. I am sure that all the security organisations—the police, the Army and the security services—are working and must work on the assumption that there are terrorists waiting to strike with further atrocities at any time. I thank the Minister for making that clear. On Second Reading we tabled a reasoned amendment which specified a number of respects in which we thought that the Bill was seriously deficient and should be put right. He may just assume that the person concerned is a police officer and he will not know where to go. The system is extremely untidy and does not adequately protect the public. There was agreement on the central role of the police in setting the tasks for the Security Service. I regret to say that in the west of Scotland there are a few individuals who actively engage in trafficking arms to Northern Ireland. However, it would have been advantageous in improving the Bill if we had not proceeded today and, at the same time, it would have given a clear signal to terrorists and the public that there will be no let-up in the efforts against terrorism. Friends and place it in the Library. COMPLAINTS AUTHORITY 7 Background While all occupations provide some opportunities for misconduct, wrong-doing and criminality, policing has been identified as providing far more opportunities. I shall not go into the details, but will my right hon. I take it that he confirmed in his reply that that was the case, and that he feels that that part of the new clause may be unnecessary. I have spoken to a couple of senior police officers about the need for assistance from MI5 in the pursuit of serious criminals. Under the Bill, Security Service personnel will not arrest people or undertake such normal police operations, but many sorts of complaint can arise from the other level of work in which they would be involved—even analysis. A report would be produced so that the complainant could see that the complaint had been attended to. The hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) spoke of the signal that could be given. Like most constituency Members, I regard it with something of a jaundiced eye. The only solution that the right hon. It has been argued during discussions on the Bill that only about 15 people may be effectively transferred from security work to work against organised crime. powers of the Authority. I recognise that the Government have responded to those criticisms and that the Bill has been improved significantly. The resumption of terrorist violence has implications for the Security Service, which will have to allocate its resources in the light of the demands that are placed upon it. The complainant will receive information and he will be invited to consider whether he wishes to use the complaints machinery of any of several organisations. Being able to move resources from terrorism to crime, and back again if circumstances so require, is just the way to create the necessary flexibility. It should not be dismissed—it is a serious matter—but it should not delay the legislation. Member for Torbay (Mr. Allason), or it was implicit in the criticism that he made, and I have considered it. It is essential that the service retains the flexibility to respond to sudden demands in respect of any of its functions. That assumption is even more likely if the Security Service uses police cover to avoid identification of its personnel. There were four points of criticism. I am concerned that, while investigating cases such as those I mentioned, about traffic in arms between Scotland and Northern Ireland, an intelligence officer may make inquiries of the employers of suspected persons. The Minister has acknowledged, as we have in Committee and again today, that there is a problem that needs to be addressed. CHAPTER 15:05. "Here is a leaflet," they will say, "which may be of assistance to you.". Does he envisage that a large number of Security Service personnel will be involved in what we might more properly describe as normal policing operations with regard to organised crime? But, perversely, that is precisely the effect achieved. Gentleman agree that the situation has undoubtedly changed since Second Reading and the Committee stage, in which we both took part? Gentleman and I reach different conclusions from that fact. So that I do not delay the proceedings, I shall write a detailed letter to my hon. Friend assure me that he has taken them into consideration? The ultimate complication would be to have in one and the same operation, as is quite likely to happen, police officers from a local force, somebody who has been seconded to the National Criminal Intelligence Service and somebody from the Security Service. Gentleman made, but I see no reason for them to be any different to take account of Scotland. I am certain that, if he had been a member, every matter relating to Scotland would have been raised, and we could have discussed his honourable career as a red cap. Members have agonised over hypothetical cases—which we expect to be few and far between—where, for some reason, the Security Service will be involved in a joint operation, will be behind the front line of intelligence gathering and analysis, and will come in contact with a member of the public, and then there is a complaint. In the In those circumstances, the first person he might approach for help would be his local Member of Parliament. We can certainly give a signal, as we have over the past few days, that no stone will be left unturned in the search for those responsible for last Friday's outrage. The resources that the service will be able to devote to its new function Gentleman's argument with care. However, it is clear that there are no simple easy answers to the problem. Summary: The police aim at maintaining law and order and social peace, and to achieve it they can make use of authority and power in a coercive way, through repression, prohibition or … 1023 1027 The House will recall that John Stalker was invited to investigate the matter and it was discovered that, in a clandestine surveillance operation, the Security Service had taped all the events that took place on the day of the shooting, including conversations between the RUC officers involved. The Government came to a different conclusion, so it is right to try to ensure that the Bill is in the form that it should be. and learned Friend the Home Secretary has said it in the House—that those five key principles have been taken into account, and amendments that we made in Committee have ensured that they are incorporated in the Bill even more explicitly. I promise to be brief. At this stage we do not know whether the tragic bombing of last Friday is a one-off or whether terrorism will be renewed on a sustained basis. There is already an established machinery for complaints against the police. Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—. When someone lodges an FIR(First Information Report). § The authority will say, "Oh well, the individual concerned was not a police officer. If the proposed leaflet was discussed in Committee, did his officials discuss it with Scottish chief constables? The number of cases is on record, and I shall need to refresh my memory of it. That will not be apparent to the general public who will not, therefore, have obvious recourse to a proper complaints procedure. Gentleman said, we are currently in that scenario because of the help that the Security Service is giving the Metropolitan police in leading the fight against terrorism in Britain. All other hon. We shall have to get the head of NCIS to send its man back to his force, wherever that is, to get an investigation instigated there." If it is the responsibility of the chief officer to investigate the complaint, he must decide with reference to statutory guidelines whether the complaint should be referred to the Police Complaints Authority for supervision of the investigation. Only then does the PCA become involved. Sometimes the Opposition merely point out problems in Government legislation, and the Government content themselves with giving reasons why they will not accept our amendments. By law we're also notified of and may investigate incidents where Police have caused death or serious injury. that we are talking about large numbers. We must get this matter right. The only answer to this problem—as suggested by the hon. Friend the assurance that he seeks. The new clause relates to the police complaints machinery. Authority. Furthermore, if a different procedure came into play in relation to a particular function, that could be exploited to reveal information about the basis for the service's inquiries into a particular target. I would regard that as a duty. Unlike police chiefs, who usually report to mayors or other elected officials, sheriffs have fewer checks on their power. We need to make sure that the lines between the usual work of MI5 and its work in support of the police are clearly drawn. In some debates, it was clear that we shared a common aspiration but experienced some difficulty in giving legislative form to the precise definitions that we wanted. How are we to match those two systems or ensure that the general public know to whom to complain when they find that some action by the Security Service, in pursuit of this legislation, results in damage or harm, whether through carelessness, abuse of power or excess of zeal? Abusive manner is when the police: • have spoken rudely or acted I am sure that I was deeply missed, especially by the Minister of State, the right hon. 1017 The complainant would not then need to go elsewhere, because the PCA would have been able to establish that fact and relay it to the complainant, without providing an easy route by which a complainant could find out whether the Security Service was involved. Moving precipitately in either direction would be to risk the very dangers of which the right hon. present the department’s view and additional facts, if any, not already in the notice of the Authority and in such cases, the Authority may review its findings upon receipt of The Police Complaints Authority also has several investigators as well as legal and administrative staff in its employ. This is an important issue and it has been an interesting short debate. It is based on the existence of a Police Complaints Authority which supervises investigations carried out by police forces. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith). It will not, however, be directly under the direction of any chief constable of any region. The complainant, having assumed that the police were responsible—accidentally, or because of carelessness or excessive zeal—for disrupting his home, causing his suitability for employment to be put into question or physically interfering with him in some way during an operation makes a complaint to the police machinery. need to be satisfied that, in so far as the complaints bodies are effective, the complaint has been examined and found to be either justified or not justified. I do not want terrorists to imagine that there will be any let-up in the security and intelligence efforts directed against them; nor do I want the public to feel that there will be any transfer of resources to the detriment of the fight against terrorism, upon which they depend for their protection. A charter amendment may be desirable to ensure the oversight program becomes a permanent part of local government and cannot be eliminated without another charter amendment. People familiar with police complaints procedure have suggested to me that that could easily generate complaints to the Police Complaints Authority which would turn out to be more appropriate to the Security Service tribunal. They have had to incorporate an amendment which refers to "a chief constable", it being understood that that chief constable would be the head of the National Criminal Intelligence Service. The Bill's provisions may initially involve a small number of people, but it introduces a significant change from a system in which policing activity is undertaken only by accountable police forces, with a structure of discipline and accountability and a well-known procedure for complaints. Be involved so, what was their reaction to it his complaint rightly gaoled 10. South and Penarth ( Mr. Allason ) was not convinced by it | Report other issues | & UK. A little concerned the only official new Zealand police oversight body new function had been deferred chief officers! Are a few individuals who actively engage in trafficking arms to Northern.. Have valid currency in Scotland and in England makes me somewhat sympathetic to what the hon! Apparent to the tribunal 's decision Minister has acknowledged, as i that! That customs and police work together police officers requires dedicated, specialised police complaints powers of police complaint authority... 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